Andrew Pace:

Welcome back to ACS Portfolio Perspective. I’m your host, Andrew Pace, Chief Client Experience Officer at ACS, joined today by my friend and colleague Chris Norman, client support manager at asset compliance solutions. With 33 years in recovery and 16 years at ACS, Chris now leads a critical lender -focused initiative identifying at -risk assets before they become problems. And just his first few months in the role, Chris has saved lenders millions by flagging potentially troubled assets nationwide. His unique combination of skip tracing expertise and communication skills has ACS’s clients and other lenders praising his insights and intervention and thanking ACS for saving the day. Chris, welcome to the show today. 

Chris Norman: 

Good to be here. Good to be here. 

Andrew Pace:

So let’s kick off the episode with our first topic, the evolution of client relationships. 

Over your 33 -year career in asset -based lending, you’ve seen a lot of changes.

Chris Norman:

Absolutely. 

Andrew Pace:

How have clients’ needs evolved during that time, especially in terms of what they expect from partners like ACS? 

Chris Norman: 

I think, yeah, if you go way back to the, you know, the Mesozoic age back when I started in the early 90s, it really was the Wild West. It was kind of almost in anything goes ethos. We just want our, you know, we want you to get the job done. We don’t want to know how you do it, but don’t get us in any trouble. So it’s kind of like almost a don’t ask, don’t tell, and they understood that. And obviously, as technology has caught up with both consumers and lenders, and also just, I guess, a public sensibility for what is out of bounds and what isn’t. There’s more heightened awareness. So obviously, as time has gone on, things have gotten more regulated, more controlled. And I think once we went through the two major financial convulsions in 2008, and then again, in the pandemic, it almost refined it. I think clients realize, and their vendors now have to realize it’s not just about the end result, getting back the asset, getting back the money. It’s about the way you do it. There’s a professionalism that’s expected.

You know, you’re treating people with respect, You know, just from a basic human decency standpoint, but also, hey, we live in the era of bad press. And, you know, you get one unsatisfied customer who felt he was taking advantage of, felt he was treated as less than. You have a lot of outlets that can go to voice their frustration. So, and once they do that, you know, bad press is, you know, It was poison to any lending institution, you know, as well it should be. You know, you don’t want to get the reputation of someone who was unfair or doesn’t care. So I think lenders have gotten more focused on a number of different aspects,not just the end result, but and not just don’t get us sued and don’t expose us, you know, to any, you know, possible litigation or loss. But they want a certain degree of professionalism and that’s really come into focus. 

Andrew Pace:

Yeah, I would say results are important, right? But it’s the journey, right?

And it’s how you got to that result that sometimes it’s, that’s even more important.

Maybe walking away from a situation is the best result, even though it’s it’s not going to get you paid, it’s not it’s not glamorous right but doing things the right way even though it doesn’t get the the result that ultimately the client wanted is almost equally as important right 

Chris Norman: 

Oh absolutely and we’ve often said over the time that we’ve worked together you know there is no one piece of equipment that’s worth a lawsuit that’s worth a year of bad press And, God forbid, worst case, they’re worth someone getting hurt over. So, you know, conducting yourself with a certain amount of professionalism is something that we expect from our vendors on the ground. And it’s something that lenders should rightly expect from us and by extension our field agents. Because I think the world we live in demands it and rightly so.

Andrew Pace:

And, you know, you talk about the Mesozoic age. It’s probably around the time I

started here at ACS back in 2001. And, you know, finding, you know, resources and service providers to handle asset recovery was a lot different than it is today. I mean, we were using phone disk and yellow pages to somebody if somebody had a heavy wrecker or a land all or low boy trailer you know would you be interested in doing a repo right and uh boy the world has changed uh quite a bit since then huh

Chris Norman: 

Absolutely that, you know it was all you know basically a phone call can you do this you know the paper was out to them in 15 minutes they were out there and you know you had you’d like to think you had no they they sounded like a good guy on the phone, but now obviously our vetting process in accordance with the times has gotten a lot more stringent where we vet our agents, you know, very carefully now. Whereas you can’t say you didn’t vet them, I mean, because most of us, especially here at ACS, but I’m assuming industry -wide, you get a certain sense about people when you talk with them. And you get, you know, you can get the sense when, You know, someone maybe is a cowboy or just someone who’s maybe seen too many things on TV. But there’s really no substitute for actually getting the paperwork, getting, you know, certain documentation that shows that they’re licensed bonded and short. And I think that’s been a very important genesis of the recovery industry. Because I remember when I started, obviously recoveries are important for a bank’s bottom line, recovering defaulted or failed assets and getting as many of them back on the books. It’s really important. But it was almost like the dirty little secret, you know, it was kind of like something they didn’t want to talk about. It was kind of like the forgotten back room in the big office, you know, because it kind of has a reputation of being, you know, kind of, you know, like the dark alley, you know, off the city street. Don’t go, don’t go there. You don’t want to find yourself there. But now I think as time has gone on, you know, the last especially quarter century and more specifically, maybe the last 15 years, I think it’s become a very important cog in the entire wheel of the financial institutions where I think before, not that it wasn’t important, but the perception was, Yeah, it’s just collections. It’s just recoveries. You know, now I think it’s, in a lot of ways, it’s become front and center because just the losses can be so high if not handled correctly.

Andrew Pace:

Would you say maybe reality TV had something to do with that,

perhaps? 

Chris Norman: 

A little bit, you know, a little bit. I mean, I think, you know, that’s probably a very good point because, I mean, we both have, we’ve commented privately over the years. You know, you have, there were two or three, you know, maybe up to a half dozen of these recovery repossession shows. And obviously, they’re the networks that they’re on are trying to put on a

compelling product. obviously, but then it becomes like the version of professional wrestling. Yeah, those guys are athletes, but it’s not really a sport. And like, yeah, those guys may be recovery agents, but that’s not what a real recovery looks like. You can’t throw someone in a dumpster or, you know, throw water in their face or or laugh at them or park, you know, block their car in and, you know, send three guys over to drag him out of the car. I mean, it does make for good TV, but it’s not reality. And I think sometimes, you know, people see that enough. And I had it said to me personally, you know, probably at least a dozen times over the years, oh, it’s just like on TV, right? I’m like, not quite. Because if it was, we’d all be out of business very quickly.

Andrew Pace:

It’s almost something that you can use as what not to do if you want to do things

the right way. 

Chris Norman: 

Yeah, exactly. See what they do. If you do everything the opposite, you’re probably going to be in good shape. But, yeah, but obviously we work in a business and the way we’ve always conducted ourselves is we’re looking for as little drama as possible. Drama during the recovery process or even during a collection called drama usually means trouble, and it usually means it’s going to take you extra time. There could be extra cost. And you’re dealing with the very real factor of dealing with, you know, another human being in crisis who could make an irrational decision. Whereas these shows, I mean, they thrived on drama. People aren’t going to tune in, you know, to watch someone fill out the proper paperwork, call in the proper authorities, you know, and do things the right way, they’re looking to see, well, what crazy escapade are these guys going to be on next? And obviously, we’ve always tried to conduct ourselves with as little drama as possible.

Andrew Pace:

A hundred percent, I think 99.9% of recoveries are non-confrontational, obviously. So, you know, that kind of segues into, you into our next question, I think, you know, when lenders are facing some of those portfolio challenges or distressed accounts, how do you go about building trust and becoming, you know, a true extension of their existing teams? 

Chris Norman: 

Well, I think the important thing is just on a very basic level. You have to be honest for the people you’re dealing with. You have to be sincere. Sometimes you have to say, we may not be able to do that or may not be able to do that in a time frame that you’re expecting if there’s going to carry more risk or the possibility of more exposure. And I think if you’re honest with them and you don’t over promise and you don’t, you don’t try and fill their head with sunshine and stardust. I think clients appreciate honest people who do what they say and say what they do. I mean, it’s an old school expression, but I think as we’ve moved along the path of the years here, I think it’s become more important. They want to know who they’re dealing with. And if they’re constantly getting exaggerations and false promises and bravado and you know, just other things like that, I think it can turn people off, you know, and obviously connected to that is results. You provide results at a fair price with as little complication as possible. A client is going to look to you as their go -to person. And probably the final thing, and maybe the most important thing, and it dobs tales into the other two, but developing a relationship with the client, not just treating them as if, you know, this is, you know, this is the source of, you know, where we’re going to make our revenue from and, you know, and make it entirely transactional relationship. I think if you take the time to get to know the people you’re dealing with, treat them like people. They treat you like people. If you form that kind of relationship, you know, you get really what the gold standard in any business is, which is trust.

Andrew Pace:

No, that’s great. So just to recap that, because I think that’s a really important message that you just shared. Trust. Don’t overpromise. Know who you’re partnering with, know, know who the client is, know who our, our external agents are. And obviously, at the end of the day, we are, right? We’re all in a results-driven environment. So results do matter on a previous episode with Brian, our owner. You know, you talk about, and even earlier on our discussion, you know, you talk about the journey and that’s, you know, sometimes that can be as critical as the result because in the environment that we work in today, we have so much oversight, so much regulation. And, you know, everybody’s seeing everything that you’re doing, you know, so you have to make sure you dot your eyes, you cross your T’s in the event of, you know, something that does come up, you know, having the right pictures, you know, taking the right photos, documenting condition reports, you know, putting dates and on delivery confirmation receipts. All those things really, really matter. I mean, they’re small in the grand scheme of things, but, you know, big things, you know, big things have small beginnings, right? 

Chris Norman: 

Absolutely. It’s, you know, it’s having a process that works. And the important thing, it’s great to have a process, but if you don’t stick to it and you don’t do it consistently, you know, then it’s just words on a piece of paper. You know, another thing with dealing with clients is we have to remember, especially in a volume business, especially in a crazy volume time, like we’re in now. We have to remember that every client does not define success in the exact same way. So that’s where the relationship comes, that client A may emphasize this and this over this and this, whereas client B, they’re going to have a different emphasis. I mean, it’s usually, you know, they’re all coming from the same tree. You know, they want, you know, consistency. They want results. They want professionalism. They, you know, they want certain paperwork. You know, they want certain things done. Communication styles are different. We have to recognize, well, all of them are important in our relations. We have to recognize, you know, which clients emphasize which things more and make sure, you know, we’re giving them what they ask for because in the end, we’re a service provider. If you’re not providing the service that is important to them, you know, then you’re walking down a path that’s hard to come back from. 

Andrew Pace:

Yeah, well, again, I think it all comes back to communication. How are we communicating or how does any service provider communicate to their team, you know, the specific client needs or, you know, what, what do they want done differently than some of the others and how is that communicated to your team to ensure that, you know, we’re dotting the eyes and crossing T’s because, again, not every relationship is going to be the same and there’s going to be some uniqueness to move on to a topic that may not get always enough attention, the human element in collections. Navigating difficult conversations with borrowers is a big part of the job, especially when emotions and financial stress are involved. How do you approach those situations with empathy, Chris? 

Chris Norman: 

Yeah. Well, I think the first thing you need to recognize, if you’re going to apply your

trade in this industry, you have to recognize that in most cases, you’re dealing with people at their lowest point. They’re backed into a corner. They never thought they would find themselves in this position where they could be losing their equipment, which is tantamount to them losing their business. So you have to really it’s you have to be delicate you know I always say firm but fair you know you have to stick to your guns about what is required in a given situation but there’s a huge difference between being firm and being condescending between being firm and being judgmental you know as Joe Friday used to say on the old dragnet show just the facts, just the facts. And you have to kind of stick with the facts. You can’t take things personally. You might hear things from people. You might hear accusations. You might hear people calling you names. You can’t react to that because, A, it’s not personal. And B, you have to remember, you know, people who are in tough positions sometimes will make irrational decisions that when

they look back, oh, yeah, I probably shouldn’t have done that. But you can either de-escalate the situation, which will actually put you in a better position because you’re treating someone like a human being and you understand that they’re in a tough position. But you could also, if you handle it poorly, escalate the situation, which turns something that may have been, you know, they may turn it over, they may not. They may pay, they may not. Now you’ve given them a reason to dig in and not do what you’re asking them to do. And the further dug in they have, the less they’re looking at the big picture. They’re just looking at, I’ve been disrespected. I’m not going to put up with that. So I’m keeping this piece of equipment. I’m not going to pay this. Whether it’s short term or long term, they have an opportunity, A, to give it back, B to pay, they may look at it, well, you know, I would have paid, but this person, you know, treated me, you know, like an animal a month ago. So I think it’s important to remember in every conversation that you’re dealing with a human being and probably a human being that is dealing with probably one of the most stressful situations that they’ve ever dealt with, you know, and, you know, conduct yourself accordingly, you know. Being kind doesn’t cost you anything. And in the end, even though this is not a business known for kindness, I think it should be because the people who are most successful at it, learn to bring at least an element of kindness to their interactions when they’re dealing with a customer, especially a customer in distress.

Andrew Pace:

I agree 100%. I sometimes, I think just giving that customer an opportunity to vent,

Right? And just sit there, listen, let them vent. Don’t take it personally. It has

nothing, you didn’t, you didn’t put them in this situation, right? I mean, one of the things we would say is not judging anybody on how they were put in the situation, right?  But you can, you can’t judge how they handle the situation. But you got it like you mentioned earlier, you know, one of the great skills I think that you can get from, or one of the skills that you learn over time is just becoming a really, really good listener and don’t react the same way that the customer is reacting to you, right? So if they’re coming in hot, just, you know, go the opposite. And oftentimes, you know, just by listening and allowing them to vent, get it off their chest, you know, they have this, you know, it’s like a relief for them. And, you know, oftentimes you’re thanking you at the end of the call, right?

Chris Norman: 

Yeah. It’s like a pressure valve. It’s like, you know, if you have a fight with your spouse, and if you’re constantly correcting them while they’re trying to get out what they need to say, it’s only going to escalate. A lot of times you let them vent, you let it get it out, say, hey, I understand, I get it. And then all of a sudden it’s like, I’m sorry, can we just go back, you know, go back to normal. And also with the listening thing, a lot of times, more often than not, I would say, if you really listen to what a customer is telling you, they will probably give you the key to getting them to do what you need them to do, somewhere within that if you’re listening carefully. So, I mean, that’s always important because they may mention something about a circumstance, something about an upcoming job, something about a relationship they have, anything that you can kind of use, you know, used to appeal to their more rational sense of, hey, this is a problem. Let’s get past it. And let’s, you know, let’s move on. 

Andrew Pace:

Well, you know, if they’re yelling and screaming and, you know, you’re engaging back, you’re really going to have a difficult time trying to problem solve. Right. I think at the end of the day, what we’re trying to try to accomplish on any of those interactions I would I would say is we’re trying to solve solve the problem you know which is why why we’re calling or why we’re having the discussion is you know there’s an issue right they defaulted on their loan and you know we’re trying to solve the problem trying to get them either back in good standing within you know the port for the lender’s portfolio or in the event that they’re not able to do so you know we unfortunately will you know have to get the equipment back to preserve, you know, the client’s interest and that investment or that asset. So, it’s really just trying to get to a state where you can have, you know, meaningful discussions and help them, you know, problem solve and try to solve the problem is really, you know, what the objective of the discussion is, right? 

Chris Norman: 

Yeah, I mean, problem solving is based on logic, not on raw emotion. So if there’s raw emotion in the air, you have to either let it discharge by letting them talk or trying to de-escalate it yourself. But until that raw emotion is out of the conversation, finding a logical solution to a problem is very difficult. 

Andrew Pace:

Right, right. Do you have any memorable stories where a particularly challenging situation ended up in a positive outcome from both for the lender and the borrower? 

Chris Norman: 

I had a situation once with a client. The father had co-signed for his son and the son was having some problems. I believe he mentioned it was something with some sort of substance. I don’t recall what but he was just starting to get things back together. But he had, you know, five or six pieces of fairly large equipment. And, you know, apparently when he worked, he did a really good job. But, you know, because of his personal issues, he wasn’t working all the time. Or he would disappear for a couple of days. You know, so, you know, we came to call on the father. He co -signed the loan. And it was like the second time over like a 60 or 90-day period that we had to call on him. And the second time he was, the second time he was very upset that we were calling him again. And he addressed me in some language that was fairly colorful, you know, probably not overly appropriate, but I understood where he was. I didn’t agree with what he was saying or how he was saying, but I understood where he was coming from. So I just let him get it out. And, you know, I just said in the end, I said, you know, I’m sorry you feel that way, you know, but unfortunately, we still have this situation. And, you know, you heard almost like, you heard a pause, and then you heard the, well, what do I need to do to get this taken care of? And he ended up taking care of it. And we never got the account back. So apparently they were able, you know, the son was able to get back on the beam. But had I argued with him over how he was addressing me, how he was talking to me, you’re not going to talk to me like that. We never would have gotten to the point where he just let it out, exhaled, kind of just said, okay, I get it. This is what it is. and he took care of it, which was probably the best for, you know, for everybody involved. I mean, you know, clients don’t want this equipment back. They would prefer to have the money that they lent contractually, you know, because once you get the equipment back, now obviously there are cases where that’s just the reality of where we have to go. But, you know, if you can get them to pay as opposed to repoing something, you know, you can avoid a lot of, you know, auction costs, transport costs, depreciation. You know, it’s a necessary part of our business and a big part of our business. But, you know, if you can avoid getting to that step just by, you know, hearing somebody out, I think it puts you in a better position. 

Andrew Pace:

Yeah, I mean, even coming up with finding ways for them to, you know, get access to money that they perhaps didn’t even think of, right? I mean, you’ve had situations where because they’re so focused on the problem, they’re not thinking of other solutions. And you’ve probably had countless examples of where, you know, they just, they weren’t looking, you know, it was there, but they, they weren’t looking there. And you kind of led them or directed them to other resources that could help them, you know, mitigate that recovery because obviously a recovery is a loss, a lost customer no longer has the asset. And obviously, the lender at some point, depending on how much equity may be in the equipment, could potentially take a significant loss if they have to liquidate it. So you’ve also opened up other channels for customers to have access to other resources to help them, you know, bring, you know, these accounts to, you know, resolution. 

Chris Norman: 

Yes, It’s about, you know, making suggestions, maybe talking to family members, talking to another lender, talking to a business partner, trying to get in advance on the job that they’re doing. And if you show that you’re as invested in a solution to their problem as they are. If there really are no solutions and you’ve invested the time in trying to help them, a lot of times, then they will just turn on and say, come get the machine, it’s here, I’ll make sure it’s clean and has fuel in it and it’s in running condition. And then that you turn a lose, lose, at least a draw. You know, they’re not going to fight you on it. You’re getting back a machine that isn’t being beaten up or, God forbid, some people do crazy things. If they’re in an irrational state, they’ll damage it. They’ll pull batteries out of it. They’ll break windows on it because they’re frustrated. But if you’re invested in a solution with them and the solution doesn’t work, a lot of times they will comply with your original request, which is to pick up the machine, which, You know, anytime you can do that without drama or confrontation, you know, I would have to take that as a win.

Andrew Pace:

Right. I, yeah, I mean, you think, you think of times where customers would take the frustration on the equipment, right? Because that’s all they got left, right? So they’re going to, they’re going to retaliate by damaging the machine, stripping it, abandoning it somewhere, right, and not telling anybody because they were so frustrated that nobody would listen, right? So we’ve been able to avoid a lot of those situations just by the approach that you talked about earlier. Let’s dive into some best practices in relationship management, something that sits at the heart of long-term success in this space. How do you strike the right balance between meeting lender requirements while also understanding and working within the realities borrowers are facing?

Chris Norman: 

That is always, you know, that’s the tightrope walk. You know, we serve two masters, for lack of a better word. We do have an obligation to the client’s customers because we are, by an extension, being a vendor of our clients, we’re an extension of them. But, you know, obviously we have clients that want stuff picked up, want stuff resolved, want stuff taken care of. I think it all comes back to just the human factor. You know, we have a job to do. And sometimes it’s not,

you know, it’s not the most popular job in the world. But once the job is done, you know, the customer wants to deal with it. You know, we have a lot of times where we picked up a unit, and then the customer will call and wonder why it was picked up or want to get personally or want certain things. And, you know, you can say, well, you know, it was our job to pick it up, you know, this is where we are, call the bank, or you can, you know, address some of their concerns. That way, you’re also showing them that you care about what they’ve been through,

but you’re still serving your client’s needs because you’ve picked up the equipment that you’ve been contractually asked to pick up. Like I said, it’s such a balancing act because, you know, it would be foolish just to turn a blind eye to, you know, financial conditions in the country in different segments of the market. You know, sometimes transportation is in really bad shape, sometimes construction. We went through a period, I believe, probably between 2010 and 2013,

where a lot of the timber industry, which made up a good deal of what we picked up. I mean, it just virtually disappeared because a lot of the logging companies went out of business because it was not. It just wasn’t feasible for a lot of the smaller operators to stay in business. It’s rare that we see logging equipment now, and it used to be very common. But, you know, that was, unfortunately, it’s not something we had a ton of control over, but a lot of the ways we were able to get those resolved is by, you know, treating the customers With respect, because if someone leaves something on attractive land that’s, you know, 15 miles in from the nearest road and down three other logging roads, you need some cooperation to get that. So, you know, that’s always, like I said, the client needs, customer needs, it’s a balancing act. And, I mean, obviously, we are hired by the client, but we can’t forget, we can’t not see the realities that the customers are dealing with and try and, you know, sometimes if it’s, you can still get the account resolved, but maybe give someone a little bit more time to do it than maybe you normally would. And that’s just still getting the resolution, but still trying to take into account the customer’s needs and situation, maybe letting them complete a load instead of trying to grab their truck and trailer out on the road and come to some corner of a group, hey, we’ll let you finish the run you’re on, you know, gentlemen’s agreement you’re going to give us back the asset when you get back. Because, you know, in the end, me, you know, me or any of the agents here or anybody doing our job grabbing a unit a thousand miles away from you know, tell the guy to take a hike on the shoe leather express or hop the bus to get home. I mean, if you can work with them a little bit, still get the asset back. But, you know, feel like you’ve addressed his, you know, hey, can I at least get home? I mean, you do have the right, say, hey, you know, the contract doesn’t say we can, we only have to pick it up when it’s convenient for you. You know, it says if you’re in default, we can pick it up. But, I mean, using just some common sense where if they’re finishing a job, maybe the job will help them redeem the unit two weeks later. So when they get paid. So, yeah, like you said, it’s a balancing act. But I think just applying some common sense and a little bit of empathy, I think, can go a long way.

Andrew Pace:

For sure. I, you know, I think emotions do come. Emotions can kind of creep in, obviously. And I think from a client perspective, or even from our perspective at times, you take things personally. Let’s say that the driver didn’t follow through on that gentleman’s agreement, right? And he came home and then he went right back out, got another load, and he’s back out on the road. So you could let emotions, you know, get the best of you and take Right? And I think, you know, if you could try to, you know, not bring that into, you know, the situation, I think it could help you, you know, be a better problem solver. And sometimes to your point earlier, no, you know, avoid contacting the customer at all costs. We don’t want calls made, but there are certain times where you have to make calls. If you have equipment that are, you know, that’s not accessible, you can see it, but you can’t touch it. You may need to make a phone call. In those kind of situations, how would you handle those kinds of situations? 

Chris Norman: 

Well, I mean, the reality of certain situations is you’re not going to get equipment. You’re not going to be able to snatch it in the middle of the night if it’s a forklift that’s used inside of a warehouse. If the person goes back to a gated yard every night, if their equipment’s on a construction site that’s secured. So there are a lot of times where you have to balance, you know, what needs to be done with what can actually be done. And then you have to find a solution that works. You know, it’s not always easy. There are going to be times when, you know, clients want their instructions, fall into the letter. And I understand that. I mean, they have a huge amount of exposure on some of these loans. They have the right to dictate how they want it done. I get it. But there are times when you have to, and it comes with experience and just, you know, time, you know, doing the job and dealing with people. There is, there are times when you might have to, you know, blur the lines a little bit in regards to maybe contact or something else just to get the job done because in the end it is about getting the job done and getting the job done correctly and getting the client back their asset and making sure the customer understands why it was picked up and they may have an issue that it was picked up you certainly don’t want them to have an issue with how it was picked up or the manner in which it was done. You don’t want to leave a loose end where someone can grab on that and pull and unravel the whole sweater because you weren’t doing things the right way. And that’s another thing that ends up putting both you and your client in jeopardy if you leave that loophole open. 

Andrew Pace:

Right. Yeah, at the end of the day, I think you’re given instructions, you obviously want to make sure that you’re adhering to what the clients are requesting. But I think if you have, if they trust you, you have the industry knowledge and experience and you’re communicating. I think oftentimes, you know, they’ll go with your, your advice or take your suggestion on, your suggestion on, hey, I think, you know, we need to pick up the phone. We need to have a conversation. We’re not going to get these assets without cooperation. We’re at a point where there’s really nothing else we can do. We’re not going to cut locks. We’re not going to break in on her. We’re not going to breach the piece. So if we’re here, let’s try to capitalize on that opportunity. And perhaps maybe a phone call is what’s needed because you have that physical presence on site and, you know, calls, emails, text messages from the lender, you know, obviously didn’t go anywhere. And perhaps it’s now boots on the ground that really makes a big difference. And now the customer realizes, boy, the bank or the lender, they mean business now. They’re, you know, they’re not kidding around. I mean, this is, this is serious. 

Chris Norman: 

Yeah, I think, again, one of the things we touched on earlier, it all comes back to communication. If a client gives you a specific instruction and you have to do something that runs counter to that, a quick phone call, a quick email explaining why you need to do that is usually all they need. And the last thing they want to feel is that you’re disregarding what they’ve told you. So, I mean, one of the best things to, one of the best ways to avoid that, quick call, quick phone call, hey, I know this says this but here’s the situation and here’s what we’re proposing to do and in most cases they’ll go well yeah if you think it’s the right thing to do or if there’s no other option go ahead just keep us posted and that’s where communication is such a key if people people know what’s going on they’re usually going to be comfortable if the plan has to have a couple changes if you’re if you’re just freelancing and tell them about it you know two weeks later you know they’re probably not going to be overly pleased.

Andrew Pace:

Right, Right. To close things out, I want to tap into your perspective on what you’re seeing in the field with market insights from the front lines. So what are some of the early warning signs of portfolio stress that lenders, banks should be paying attention to right now? 

Chris Norman: 

Well, I think sometimes just as watching the news, watching, you know, what trends are financially. You know, usually, I mean, it’s big, there are a lot of dominoes. Usually when one falls, they all fall. I know for us personally, I think one of the things we pride ourselves is to trying to keep our clients in the loop, because we have such a large network of field agents, I mean, they are an invaluable resource when they hear chatter about, oh, this huge trucking company is closing, this huge construction company is closing. You know, if a transportation company that employs 1 ,100 drivers goes out of business, you can bet there’s going to be a huge ripple effect across all the drivers, plus all the people they answer to. So a lot of times for us, it’s taking the chatter and the information we got on the ground of passing it back to our clients. So they have an idea. Part of our outreach program here is also to try and arm the bank with as much information as we can before something becomes a problem. If you can identify something is a problem. You know, if, you know, that lesion on your skin you get looked at instead of waiting until it’s, you know, turning different colors. They might be able to cut it off. If you wait, I mean, you just don’t know what it’s going to turn into. So one of the things with our outreach program that I spearhead here, obviously with a lot of assistance from you, but, you know, we try and get clients information, which is so invaluable, especially in this age, where things move so quickly, for them to have information if we know that there is a customer out there that may be on the verge of experiencing some difficulties, you know, and we can make an inquiry to them saying, hey, this might be something you might want to take a look at. They find it valuable, because if they can get, you know, if they can get, you know, some eyes on a particular account they may have before they know it’s a problem, knowing that it could be a problem, a lot of times the problem can be prevented. And that’s one of the things, obviously, our outreach program is, you know, information for our clients, as well as trying, you know, to, you know, bring business in the door, which, you know, we’re a service provider, you know, and so we want to provide our services because, you know, not to be, you know, we don’t want to be boastful, but, you know, we do it pretty well here, I would have to say, you know, and, you know, so trying to, you know, get more business in the door is part of what we try and do. But that’s, again, it’s not everything. To me, the information that clients get from a quick inquiry, you know, hey, I’ve noticed something with this customer, perhaps that might be something you want to look at. Maybe you can avoid having to send it to repo or avoid having to charge it off, you know, if it can be addressed three days, five days, two weeks before it actually turns into a problem. And I think, you know, just going back, the information is so important because there’s really no substitute for it, especially information from a reliable source, from a reliable and trusted relationship. Let’s face it, there’s so much nonsense out there these days. Sometimes it’s hard to cut through all the noise and figure out, okay, I’ve just had 15 pieces of information thrown at me. I know five of them are correct. Okay, which five? Well, you’re probably going to go with the five most trusted sources. If it’s a relationship you trust, you’re going to take it seriously. If it’s just from somebody just blindly throwing something at you, you’re probably going to disregard it. So, you know, that’s, I think being forewarned is being forearmed. And I think there’s a lot of truth to that, Knowing what a situation is and being having time to examine it before you pull the trigger on a decision as opposed to doing it in kind of a hasty manner, I think is very beneficial to our clients being able to examine a situation and then decide what the best practice is as opposed to having to make it because something just happened. You know, some of the hardest repos we do are ones where we know exactly where it is, but because it’s been, because it’s in an impound and no one knew it was in an impound. You know, now you’re looking at just, you know, some of the impound yards we deal with have requests that, you know, border on the ridiculous. And time is money because some of them charge, you know, a fairly high daily rate. And, you know, if we can possibly cut those times down, not only if we save our clients’ money, you save time for having the asset in the command and control of someone who may not have your best interests at all. 

Andrew Pace:

No, that’s great. I think your first point that you brought up was just, you know, kind of just pay attention to what’s going on, you know, in the news, right? You know, that’s really critical for transportation assets. I think you can look at freight rates and, you know, what, what fuel is going for these days, diesel fuel, you know. So, no, thank you. Those are great points. 

Chris Norman: 

Yeah, paying attention to what insurance costs are. 

Andrew Pace:

True. 

Chris Norman: 

Insurance costs are skyrocketing. And when that happens, usually some of the people were on the edge that sometimes, you know, if their insurance goes up double in a year, that may put them out of business. So if you know there’s a huge, if you hear there’s a huge increase coming up, you may want to look at more of your transportation portfolio, maybe look at the people who’ve never gotten in a repo, but that struggled continually 15, 21 days late, you know, might be worth revisiting those kind of accounts.

Andrew Pace:

Absolutely. Are there any emerging trends you’re noticing through some of your direct

interactions with borrowers, anything that might not be showing up in the data just yet? 

Chris Norman: 

That’s hard to say. I think regardless of the news you get from, you know, our diverging points of view in the government, I think a lot of people are still really struggling. I think some sectors have gotten better. Some sectors have gotten worse. But I think overall, I still think there is a sense of people aren’t sure where things are headed, especially with all these talk of tariffs. A

lot of people don’t understand what they are. They don’t understand what the implications could be for something like the transportation business. I mean, if an importer who’s using multiple trucking companies to move their products from the port of Los Angeles across the country, you know, they may come back to them and say, hey, I need you to take, you know, a 20% hit because of my elevated costs for bringing the products into the country. You know, and that might not be, you know, that might not work for a lot of people. And so I think there’s so much

uncertainty out there. I think that’s the biggest trend that I’ve noticed is uncertainty. A lot of people are playing a wait and seeing game before they commit too much before they commit to buying, even sometimes before they commit to paying something, you know, because you got to remember, again, we go back to all these folks that we deal with, you know, they’re everyday people. And a lot of times they’re not going to pay their truck if they’re going to lose their house because they figure, I can make it up and I can make that up. I’ll get to it. I’ll get to it. I’ll stay on the road. I’ll work even harder, I’ll get over this bump. But I think the watchword that I’m seeing right now is still a fair bit of uncertainty just on the ground on the customer level, because there’s so much competing information. I think there’s a lot that people are unsure of. Even people who feel that they’re in a good spot right now are not sure if that’s going to last. So I think there’s definitely a wait -and -see thing. Some people are, and that’s the thing. Some people are optimistic. There are other people who aren’t optimistic. Social media plays a huge part in that. I think a lot of people’s perspectives are colored by who they choose to follow or who they choose to listen to or whose articles they choose to read on social media. And I think if I was a bank, I’d be, you know, try to have a fairly large presence on social media, whether it’s X or even Facebook or Instagram, because so much is being posted there. And I think a lot of times the social media, as opposed to newspapers, are setting more trends now than they used to. I think it would behoove a lot of lenders to kind of keep an eye on that, because that’s, that’s, The things can change so quickly if something lands and something becomes part of the public consciousness. Now, usually doesn’t stay there for long, but in a business like transportation, it doesn’t have to stay there for long to have a large effect. 

Andrew Pace:

Right. And finally, I’d love to hear about your experience with, we talked about those collaboration, those outreach, at -risk asset notifications initiative. How has that been received? and the kind of impact it’s having for our clients? 

Chris Norman: 

I believe that, well, I don’t believe. The feedback we’ve gotten has been almost universally positive. Again, it all comes back to that, you know, to that, you know, buzzword of information. And banks, you know, banks are more conservative. They’re conservative businesses by nature. So they have information that makes their job easier. They certainly appreciate it. We’re very lucky. We have a lot of really good clients that, you know, that we collaborate with, that we partner with as opposed to just working for. And I think that’s a critical distinction to make. And most of them really appreciate the fact that we’re watching out for them. And we’re passing along the information we get to them. I mean, we could just as easily, you know, just as easily just not do it, you know, just ignore it. Just ignore it and just, you know, go about our day, you know. But, I mean, I think they appreciate that we’re taking the time to try and keep them as informed as up to date. Because that way they can look at the information and they can see trends developing with their customers based on the communications we get from us. So it

helps them in so many different ways. A, stopping problem accounts before they become

problems, even just more, you know, deep functions like, you know, just forecasting, you know, what are we looking at? This is another tool that they can use to help forecast, well, where are things going to be in a month in six months, just from the information we’re providing. But the feedback has been universally positive. It’s been very encouraging. And, you know, it just, when you get that encouragement and get that feedback, and you know that the people you’re dealing with appreciate the information you’re providing, it just makes it that much easier just to really be dedicated to getting the best information to them as possible and trying being as clear as possible and trying being as expedient as possible. So I think it’s been a win -win for everybody and just, you know, those are the best kind of transactions when everyone wins, you know, so that works.

Andrew Pace:

Yeah. So before we wrap up, do you have any questions for me?

Chris Norman: 

Hey, get me one of those ACS pullovers with that logo on it. I like, no, I just, I’m just kidding. 

Andrew Pace:

It’s in the mail.

Chris Norman: 

No, I print checks in the mail. 

Andrew Pace:

Checks in the mail. 

Chris Norman: 

No, I just, well, tell me what, I mean, you’re dealing with a lot of, you know, A-level type folks, I mean, are you seeing the same uncertainty? Are you seeing different trends? I mean, what are you seeing? Because I’m dealing on a certain level. You’re dealing on kind of a level above that. And you would think they’re sympathetic open. Not always. Sometimes there are different kinds of, you know, different perspectives. I’d just be interested to see on where you are, what you’re seeing. 

Andrew Pace:

You know, there’s still a lot of uncertainty. You know, I think you hear a lot of lenders say that things are still going to be busy from our perspective for the next few quarters, maybe even into 2026. So I think right now the outlook is, there’s still uncertainty in the outlook is it’s difficult to predict, unfortunately, because there’s so many things going out there. There’s so many, you

know, the headwinds, as you mentioned earlier, with tariffs, interest rates. You know, the, I would say there’s a lot of high risk. There’s more high risk lenders so they’re still lending whereas some some lenders have maybe scaled back a little bit so you know there’s always going to be a need for you know there’s always going to be defaults because i think there there

are more higher risk lenders in the space than there were maybe 10-15 years ago with the you know with technology and you know that so i think i think you know it’s it’s really difficult It’s really difficult to tell. For a couple of years, we’ve hear, oh, it’s going to get better. It’s going to get better. I mean, we’ve been hearing that for, you know, for two, three years. I think coming out of the pandemic, a lot of those deferrals and a lot of the, you know, modifications. Some customers, you know, had several rounds of deferrals and modifications. And at some point, you know, you can’t continue to keep doing that. So I think that’s caught up. And obviously, you know, right now we’re dealing with the asset values on transportation right now are still historically low. So as soon as those, you know, and with obviously you have a high number of used assets in the market right now that’s flooding the market. A lot of these larger transportation companies that have gone out of business, those assets have Obviously, they flood the market, which could bring asset values down even more. So once we start seeing, you know, used truck sales increase, I think, you know, things will both will start to slow down. But yeah, I think it’s one of those things where it’s just nobody really knows. So a lot of guessing. And, you we’re we’re just unfortunately in a position where it’s reactionary right now but as I think brian and I talked to you know at a previous episode that you know trying to try to get further upstream and and you know providing other services can help mitigate some of those some of those defaults you know, would you agree?

Chris Norman: 

Absolutely. I think, you know, we’re just, we, in our position, kind of the, you know, the Scylla and Caribbean is between the rock and the hard place. We can’t commit too much to one side of the getting better, can’t get too much that’s going to get worse. So we’re trying to just cover all of our bases, I think. But, you know, again, we’re just trying to arm ourselves with the most information possible and just trying to keep an eye on it because I think when things change, it will change quickly. That’s just kind of the nature of the world now, because it seems like

it’ll be like it is now forever. And all of a sudden we’ll see probably over a 60-day period where we’re going to notice the change. Like there’ll be a change so. 

Andrew Pace:

Right.

Chris Norman: 

So just be prepared, be prepared, you know, do the, you know, try and make sure that whether we’re busy or slow, that we’re keeping the practices that have kept the business open for the last 27 years. And, you know, just you got to, in the highs and the lows, you try and stay consistent and just be ready for anything, I guess. 

Andrew Pace:

Right. Well, that’s a great place to leave it for today. Thanks again for sharing your insights and experience, it’s clear that a strong culture, thoughtful relationship management and real -time market awareness are critical to success in this space. 

To our listeners, thank you for tuning in.If you found this conversation valuable, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share with your network. We’ll be back soon with more conversations from across the asset -based lending and recovery landscape. Until next time, thank you so much, Chris, for participating. 

Chris Norman: 

My pleasure, it was interesting and informative, and I always enjoy speaking with it. 

Andrew Pace:

All right, well, you take care. 

Chris Norman: 

You too.